User Curves data storing

[Vincent]

Hi Olivier.

In chapter 19 "Patch & Workspace", DocSenso explains us where data are stored in the hierarchic organization of Usine.
I have some questions/suggestions:
User Curves are stored in the workspace, right?
That seems logical, since those curves are part of the general "musical story" of the workspace. But User Curve modules are stored in the patch itself!
So, well, it's a bit tricky... could the Curve Settings be stored in the patch, and only the points in the workspace?
This way, the User Curve Modules could just have in their properties an updated list of the added or deleted curves names. I mean: no need to delete and reinsert new User Curve Modules each time you change curve names (by example to re-sort them out).
It's not an easy question, I surely need more experience. What do you think?

More generally, about the Doc, are you now working on a new one or can I work for some corrections, links and bookmarks on the one I have (and directly receive remarks from Us(in)ers)(and buy some cheap time)?
What is the original format you're working on? I've told you that I could do a structured CHM file starting from a HTML format (and related picts). I'm not a pro, but if you're interested...

Your obliged.

[senso]

Hello,
You are right; curves should be associated to the patch.
I plan to modify the curve behaviour:
-the concept of User curve module is not clear. Curves have to be linked to controls (faders, etc.)

Thanks for Doc proposition. The main problem is that I update the manual (at least) every day. As we discuss before, I think that it's better to write independents chapters. And then include them in the 'official doc' or as small PDF in the Usine package. Even if we are redundant.
something like 'how to create a sub patch' by Vincent.

I use a Word. I can send you a link to the .doc to have an access 'documents styles' and to be homogenous together.
What do you think?

The more you have documents, the more you spend time to update, modify, add things.

[Vincent]

Olivier,

Thanks for your answer about curves. It's encouraging to see I don't always say silly things...

Well, Okay for using your Word template, of course, but do you realize that you'll have to coordinate all that stuff and give me - I mean, give us - orientations and instructions?
Why not add a forum specially for that kind of work, where we could download templates and upload our tutos? Should it be bilingual? Argh!

[senso]

thanks for your proposition.
That why I think it has to be an independent document.

Download the .doc file at:

http://sensomusic.com/download/examples ... al2.78.zip

[Vincent]

Done.
I'll first take the styles, do a *.dot file and send it back to you. You can need it if, by example, Bj?rn wants to explain how to make his Randomktail Script (poly).
Ill do a the very simple thing you suggested to me: how to make a sub-patch. It's already done, so I think I can do it. Hu-hu...
But, seriously, you should ask us precise things and give orientations. Create a new forum.

[bsork]

Maybe a new Tips'n'Tricks forum would be simpler to handle - not much administration needed. Except for deleting bad or outdated advices, I guess...

I'd be happy to explain my "Randomktail Script (poly)" patch as soon as I find out what that is.

Once in a while, a "best of" from this forum could be compiled as a separate document to go along with the manual.



And congratulations with the status as a Premium Member, Vincent!

PS. Nice sneak preview of new functionality in the doc, Olivier. DS

[Vincent]

Maybe a new Tips'n'Tricks forum...

Yes. But there should be something for other docs like tutos or "HowTo's".

I'd be happy to explain my "Randomktail Script (poly)" patch as soon as I find out what that is.

I know you want to keep it secret.

Once in a while, a "best of" from this forum could be compiled as a separate document

and a zapping too. Who starts? Be assured: not me.

And congratulations with the status as a Premium Member, Vincent!

Thanks, Bj?rn.

Olivier, I changed my mind:
I'll do two First Steps Tutos: one for a Grid structure, one for a Sequenced one. That will be a small common ABBA shaped piece showing clearly the specific concepts of Usine (I hope).
I'm thinking about "speaking" patches and their order of introduction for progressive and self building knowledge.
Hope you're not in a hurry for that, boss...

[senso]

Maybe a new Tips'n'Tricks forum...

Don?t you think that the Tips'n'Tricks forum, is in fact, what the 'patching question' should be?

I'm not sure that we need another forum topic, but much more a knowledge base which contains pdf about precise subject (?)

I can add a new section in the download area:
Some thing like 'additional manuals'

Vincent,
Feel free to write what you think is good for other users.
Your choices are perfect.
Finally, the best thing is to have a real external point of view.

Once in a while, a "best of" from this forum could be compiled as a separate document

hard job...1400 post...
Maybe turn it into a simple FAQ.

[bsork]

Well, I thought that a Tips'n'Tricks forum should not be a typical forum with questions and answers like in patching questions, but rather a simple way to put in descriptions, tutos and how-tos. Some form of editing would probably be needed. Actually what I was thinking of, isn't that far from being a FAQ section, but with additional tips and ideas about things that are not very frequently asked.

The additional manuals idea is also a good one, but in that case I think maybe it should be available for other than Premium Members as well, since (if we can create some good writing) it might create more interest from "prospective customers".

[Vincent]

The additional manuals idea is also a good one, but in that case I think maybe it should be available for other than Premium Members as well, since (if we can create some good writing) it might create more interest from "prospective customers".

I was not thinking differently: the docs I'm working on are made to have an easy approach of Usine, which is a very unusual and very confusing soft for people used to modular builders and/or VST-hosts.
It's not enough to say that it's made for musicians. A music stand is made for musicians, or a bench, or a fly-case, or a glass of cold beer. Don't need tutos for such stuffs. But Usine? All is either new or very different (cf. sampler module!).
I've been talking to guys on other forums (notably Reaktor): they downloaded Usine, look a it, try some tricks they knew on apparently similar patches, and finally gave up and forget it.
As a matter of fact, I exactly did the same. The difference is just I'm fierce and keen.
Is Usine made only for fierce and keen guys (or... well... let's imagine... girls)?

Finally, the best thing is to have a real external point of view.

Absolutely.
Should I be alone do give mine? Maybe I'm still too young in Usine using, but that makes at least a real external point of view.
Bj?rn, at the beginning, I thought you were part of the developers team! You don't seem very external!

I think we are talking about two different things.
1. tips and tricks
2. docs
and Olivier, I think you gave the two answers:

Don?t you think that the Tips'n'Tricks forum, is in fact, what the 'patching question' should be?

I'm not sure that we need another forum topic, but much more a knowledge base which contains pdf about precise subject

And we could find also tips'n tricks in those PDF...
Except the PDF I'm supposed to write, I have nothing to add!
Bj?rn talks about some form of editing? You mean Document templates? I'm developing one with some small procs for common and frequent tasks (TOC updates, links, indexes, captions, bookmarks and so on) for MS Word (as Olivier uses Word) and standardized style names (on right click!). Olivier, cool, I only change names! I'm afraid I'll have to do it in Norwegian...

BTW, that was a "User Curve data storing post"... sorry for the digression!

[senso]

thanks for your implication.
You are right bsork new tutos should be available for everybody. (premium members or not).
I'll put them in the download section like the actual manual.

Vincent, thanks for the document template (English version of the style sheet is prefect).

I think that all new docs have to be in pdf format: easier to download and print?

[Vincent]

As I never print the documentations (paper is trees), I could not answer.
PDF can be very clean.
CHM is more help-looking, much quicker, and much more sophisticated.
Some softs (ex: Finale) provide the two formats, the content is exactly the same.
Well, I don't know. It's up to you.
That changes nothing for edition, anyway, since we can use Word.
About Style sheet: I add some small procedures for common tasks, they are bilingual (or more) with an INI file in the same folder. Half of the job is done, maybe. I think we will need tools very soon. Things happen sometimes quickly.

Cheers

[senso]

Right now, I think a pdf is better.
Especially for a tuto like "basic concepts of Usine"?

[Vincent]

Yes, you're right. Let's go for PDF.

[bsork]

Hello,

downloadable PDFs is a good solution, and it's nice if they have a common look. It seems that Vincent is quite good in all the different tools in Word - unlike me... Having a standard template helps. (And don't worry about a Norwegian version; most Norwegians - and other Scandinavians I suppose - are used to read stuff like this in English as hardly anything can be found in our native language.)

As I've probably have mentioned elsewhere, I work as a developer of business software, and as so many other developers, I'm a bit allergic to writing documentation, but I wouldn't mind creating a tuto or three on some aspects of Usine. A lot more interesting than explaining all the fields in some boring basic data window. However, I'm blank on what the subjects should be - any suggestions? I do have an idea for document, and that is a collection of how to do various kinds of calculations.

(Vincent: With editing I meant that if this was a forum open for everyone to enter their solutions, wrong and/or bad ideas or descriptions should be removed.)

[Vincent]

as hardly anything can be found in our native language.

Anything but good poetry.

Vincent: With editing I meant that if this was a forum open for everyone to enter their solutions, wrong and/or bad ideas or descriptions should be removed.

Anderstand. Thanks. I'll try not to be too bad.
You'll have soon a nice Word template, I promise. The matter is that I have some job to do before... That will come.

BTW, of course each author of doc is responsible of its updates.

[senso]

However, I'm blank on what the subjects should be - any suggestions?

Something about script?

With editing I meant that if this was a forum open for everyone to enter their solutions, wrong and/or bad ideas or descriptions should be removed.

And who take the decision?
"Your trick is stupid, cancelled..."
and we can add
"You are stupid too, cancelled..."
Sure, not me!

of course each author of doc is responsible of its updates.

I think it's better like that.

[bsork]

Ok, I'm with you both!

Separate docs with each author responsible for their own creations, but I wouldn't mind someone else taking a read before making the doc "official" to find errors. Like for instance a missing "not"....

Vincent, what do you think if we sent each other the docs for review? No need to bother Olivier with this I think - he has enough to do already I suppose. I'm fairly good at finding other people's errors, but bad at seeing my own.

About possible subjects for such docs, I was also thinking of doing something concerning scripts. I won't have time for doing anything serious about it in a while, but I'll have it in the back of my head and make some mental notes.

[Vincent]

Separate docs with each author responsible for their own creations, but I wouldn't mind someone else taking a read before making the doc "official" to find errors.

It's requisite, indeed.

what do you think if we sent each other the docs for review? No need to bother Olivier with this I think[...]. I'm fairly good at finding other people's errors, but bad at seeing my own.

Yes, brother, you're thinking with my brain or what? Would you mind giving it back to me, please?

I was also thinking of doing something concerning scripts. I won't have time for doing anything serious about it in a while, but I'll have it in the back of my head and make some mental notes.

I think the best to begin is to do things in which we are good, for which we don't need to check continuously in the doc if we are explaining wrong things. It's a big job, pagination, screenshots, english... just a way for us to "taste" what can be an Olivier's work day (and night).
What kind of script you're thinking of? I could integrate it in my doc. I've planned to show how to organize patches through the tracks and/or the grid, use Live Sequencer and Conductor. This is the main concept of Usine and maybe, as it's brand new, the less easy for beginners. I know what I'm talking about.
My purpose is to help people who try Usine for the first time, and cannot do interesting thinks, and finally give up. I'm sure it's 99.99% of the cases.
As it seems to me that that kind of topic has (almost) nothing to do in that forum, I add my personal email address in my profile.

Cheers.

[bsork]

Hi Vincent,

I wasn't really thinking of a "how-to-write-a-script" doc, more a collection of tips and tricks - some of them of course already mentioned in various topics. Something like "how to handle arrays", "saving CPU", etc. More specific tutorials would come next, I guess.

You'll find my mail address in my profile - use that when you have something ready.

[senso]

cool
thanks

[Vincent]

"saving CPU"

Yes. You have good ideas.

[bsork]

Hi Vincent,

have you finished a template? If so, could you mail it to me?

I'm still working on my PunchInLoops workspace, and when I'm finished (that is when I decide to not put some new idea into it) in the not too distant future, I was thinking of going a bit over the top with documentation. Not a simple read_me.txt file or some comments scattered around, but a PDF with a combination of "user manual" type of stuff and descriptions of how the various bits have been created, and why I chose to do it this way instead of that, etc.

I think that even those not interested in the way the workspace operates might find something useful in there; if not in the patches then in the documentation.

[senso]

good idea.
I think that vincent has made a template...

If you can't wait, in the "Module Development" folder you can find some *.doc files with a style sheet. Only one problem: styles names are in french.
I'll translate them soon. (I'm far away from home, and I come back tomorrow)

[bsork]

I can wait - I'm not finished. I'm adding or revising things almost every night. I've taken a look at one of the docs, and the three styles in french are no problem to understand. I can also check the look of the different elements used in the PDF-manual against the various styles listed. If however Vincent is (more or less) finished, I sure would like to get it.

I might have to do some extra work with the templates myself, however. I don't have Word, so when I got my new laptop last weekend (yes!!! finally!!!) I downloaded OpenOffice.

I've only taken a very quick look at some of the OO programs, so I haven't got the faintest clue of how easy or hard it will be to transfer templates and styles from Word to OO, but that's my problem anyway. Shouldn't be too much work, I suppose. For all I know, I can use a Word template without any hassle. If not, the new OO template could be distributed alongside the Word version.

Edit:
I've downloaded OpenOfiice to my work machine, and the Word docs open without any problems whatsoever; french style names and all! And PDF creation has a dedicated button in the standard toolbar. Converting a 7 page document with some tables and stuff was over before I released the mouse button - it even went faster than saving in OO's own format. Nice!

[senso]

good news, with OO.

The main problem is that it works from word ->> OO but not OO->> Word.
did you try?
I use to have very bad surprises

Any I will translate the actual styles in english.

[Vincent]

Hi guys,

Yeah, this template. It seems that I had no plan to come to a finalized product...
I started it with the idea of an open stuff for multilingual interface, it's now bastard-bilingual: French and English! More than half of the text strings are written in the code... So I just have to translate them, and I'll send it to you Bjørn. Aout styles names, you'll understand that "Titre 1" means "Title 1", things like that! Those names cannot be changed since they are
It uses Visual Basic for Application (MS VBA), you'll have to install it if you did not do it, and do the appropriate customizations for virus protection.

About OO.o, I've tried it too, but very quickly. OO is told to work with VBA too, but what about the specific application libraries (specially tool bars and things like that)? No time for that now!
I'll send to you as soon as possible this template with it's related files and some tricks. All in English.
BTW, the first part of my Usine Easy Start is finished since a week, what do I do, Olivier? Do I wait for your agreement or upload it as beta version? I think that beta version is not a good idea.

[Vincent]

The main problem is that it works from word ->> OO but not OO->> Word.
did you try?

I've tried. Bad surprises too, in both ways. I think that if we want to share our work, we should use the same word processor. And decide once for all which one it'll be... What do you think?

[bsork]

OK folks, l'll do some more checks back and forth between the two programs tomorrow at work. The versions I'm using is Word 2003 and OO 2.2. Actually I don't see much trouble in using different word processors as long we can read each others files and the resulting PDF looks the way it's supposed to.

Yes, I understood the few French style names that was in the doc files - no problem there. And even if I hadn't, it's quite easy to see where a certain style is used by the looks.

Just curious, Vincent: What are you using VBA for? I'm far from being an accomplished word processor user (and I guess I'll never be one either), so if it where me, I would probably create some styles and let updates of TOC or whatever be handled manually.

[Vincent]

Just curious, Vincent: What are you using VBA for?

For fun. No kidding, I'm using VBA by coincidence since it is the MS Office development language. If it were C++, I would use C++.
As some guys like to write add-ons for OO, I wrote some dvpts for Excel, Word and Outlook. This template is a very simple, but pretty useful stuff; for Word, sorry. I swear that if I had time to learn some other language, I would just do it. When I learned VBA, I just did not know that was Microsoft neither what was Microsoft... You know, I'm not from the same planet...
But the huge prob is that I use time to do only things I like.
So, I'm not sure I'll learn any other language, except Norwegian, or Korean, or music, you see... real languages to talk with stuffs that are not machines, specially if they are female.

edit
I am a writer, and I used to be an office automation teacher. I think I know that damned Word not so badly. Don't worry about that, it's my part of the job.

Vincent, what do you think if we sent each other the docs for review?

Bjørn, a Quick Start Tuto is waiting on my HD since more than one week for somebody to look at it with unkind eyes. It's not exactly ended, but it's just a question of minutes. Would you mind to have a look at it?

[bsork]

Hello Vincent, I didn't wonder why you used VBA instead of some other programming language, just curious of what you had automated. Being a primitive sort of word processor user myself, I might create some styles and do the rest manually. Well, maybe create a simple key macro once in a while.

And you can just mail the tuto to me at bsork@online.no, and I'll have a look. I guess you want to use the Track Changes option. BTW, it wouldn't hurt if someone with English as their native tongue would join in... Hello, is there anybody out there?

I've only taken a quick look at Track Changes/Reviewing once long ago, so I tried to turn it on, do some changes, save it and reopen it in OO, do the same there, and finally reopen it in Word again. This was far from a being a comprehensive test (which I'm not the right person to do anyway), but everything looked the way it was supposed to in both programs.

[Vincent]

just curious of what you had automated.

• Some fields (title, comments, author...) at the creation of each new doc to ensure standardization of first pages
• Setting English dictionaries for the current session (if installed)
• It is supposed to be multi language UI, so there is also a small text string initialization according to your first choice (and you can add your own language in an INI file, not finalized yet, since it's the last thing to develop!)
• Checking headers and footers (title, date, version, etc..)
• Usine's Logo has recently changed and may change again; just put the new logo in the right folder, it'll be set at the right place with Usine's main links at the opening of the document
• Some commands on the right click, like inserting a picture or updating it after edit, or putting together a picture and a facing text, inserting or updating Table of Contents, apply styles, things like that...
• Internal links like e.g. "see page #"
• ... more ideas?
The purposes are a) to ensure a standard look and structure of all the docs and b) to make easy the most common tasks in writing a documentation.
I've mailed it to you yesterday, did you receive it?
BTW, it's much more quicker and stable to close the document before changing it to PDF: close it and right click on it's icon in the folder, it should be accessible via Windows shell.

About English checking on my Tuto, it will be done in time, don't worry about it. I just was wondering about the content and it's clarity.

I guess you want to use the Track Changes option.

Why not? To Track Changes works well when opening the doc with a different author name.
When working with my publisher or other authors, we don't use this but a lot of real paper, it's too superficial. By just accepting or rejecting changes, you don't really dig in the text. But, well, for tutos, I don't know...
I think that the most efficient are feelings, comments, advices and/or suggestions.

I tried to turn it on, do some changes, save it and reopen it in OO, do the same there, and finally reopen it in Word again. [...] everything looked the way it was supposed to in both programs.

The way they look is one stuff, the way they work is quite another one... As a developer, you know what it means!

Well, I have to go to work now.

[bsork]

Hello Vincent, I'm just about to go from work...

I haven't got any mail from you - I just checked again.

[Vincent]

Hello Vincent, I'm just about to go from work...
I haven't got any mail from you - I just checked again.

SH... Send it again right now.